For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 But if you bite and devour one another, watch out that you are not consumed by one another. ~ Galatians 5:13-15
Nothing like coming out to edify and teach why you don’t subscribe to something with your fellow believers by comparing them to Hitler’s key propagandist! Wow, I am truly sickened and heart broken by the latest in the Revelation 12 Sign debunkings. This one by Koinonia House. I’m not going to do a point by point break down correction on it because I know there will be a few done but actually, this just like all the other “debunkings” can fall back on the ones already put out there because it is the same ole same ole. But this one has some added flare by alluding that the Revelation 12 sign followers are “falling for Nazi type propaganda” or, even worse employing it! Again, this provided another BAD argument that does not really debunk a thing! And if I hear “It’s astrology” one more time I won’t have to be raptured because my head just might explode before Jesus has a chance to!
What I will say is that the most sickening and disheartening thing is, and has been from day one, the comments made by the fellow naysayers through out social media who STILL have not done any real research into this sign. They, just like all the others who came out to “debunk” it, jump on the same bandwagon. Only thing with that is the wagon only has one good wheel on it. The wheel that says that not one specific day should be called out as THE day for the rapture. It could happen on those days, days right before it or days after it. I, as well as most who have eyes to see this sign, do subscribe to the fall feast days time frame though (even though some of us are not opposed to any day now as well). So, that is the reason that all come off as naming a day because the Revelation 12 sign happens to fall on a “it could happen on this feast day event”. Almost every single person who sees the significance of this sign say it COULD POSSIBLY happen now and this is as good a year as any. This sign does (whether some like it or not) give credence to that very fact. If not, guess what, I and those who are on watch for Jesus will still be looking for him as we do EVERYDAY! Why? Because, not only are we are told to watch, we love doing it! It fuels our excitement of Jesus coming for us soon! It fills our lamps with MUCH oil! And, as I have said before, It is still a sign just like the blood moons are still signs. Remember this?
And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night. And let them be for SIGNS and for seasons, and for days and years… ~ Genesis 1:14
It completely boggles my mind about the vitriol that is coming out of my siblings though. There are no civilized conversations anymore. They end up in attack. It was never like this before. Sure, you still get your pre, mid, post trib debates. And those who see the pre trib view get some pretty vicious attacks (with bad arguments). This reminds me of those attacks but, this sign is causing some extra weird thing to happen. What in the world is causing the majority of the sign scoffers to act like they honestly took the real time and looked into it when they really haven’t? If they had the debunkings would actually match the details of the sign and they simply DO NOT. What makes the social media sign scoffers come out against their fellow believers with such hubris as if they are wiser than the sign watchers? One actually said that those of us who find this sign significant don’t know how to study God’s word. Sigh. Why does it seem like when they have “a big name” come out against the sign they lick their fingers with glee as if they just ate a tasty piece of chicken? What in the world would cause one part of a body to attack another. In a physical body cancer could. What could be the cancer in our body? I’m reminded of a little humor from a favorite comedian of mine from the past:
Sorry, I needed a little lighthearted humor even if it does ring true. When I was little my brother would tackle me and hover over me with spit dangling from his mouth. I would wiggle and squirm and yell because I hated that. But, you know what? he would never let that spit fall on my face and he would suck it back up. Yeah, he still laughed about it and would do it again but he never let that spit fall because he loved me. There are back and forth bickerings between both parties in some instances for sure. But some of you are letting the spit fall in your siblings faces. Because sadly, for the most part, there is a condescending tone and often character attacks on the people who talk openly and freely (not looking to sell their investigative work) from those debunking this sign and by the followers of said debunkers. The kind of hurtful and cruel comments that do seem to have an air of spiritual attack to them. One that could cause such pride, scoffing, mocking, tearing down ridicule of those we are supposed to be sharing all eternity with. Seriously think about that. Think about what could be causing the tearing down and attacking the people who we are supposed to love. What did Jesus tell all of us?
“Little children, yet a little while I am with you. You will seek me, and just as I said to the Jews, so now I also say to you, ‘Where I am going you cannot come.’ 34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. 35 By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.” ~ John 13:33-35
I ask you, are we loving one another in the discussions of this great sign coming?
1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.
4 Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant 5 or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; 6 it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. 7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
13 So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love ~ 1 Corinthians 13
I think I will instead try to see the positiveness in the vitriol being tossed out. I think that such an all out attack on the body of Christ by having us at each other’s throat in some cases most likely means he is in fact about to step past that door post to bring us home. Just more confirmation to me. And I have to add, it seems to me like that red dragon is already snapping at that baby right now because, when I read or hear what some of my siblings say about those of us because we think this sign is significant, it stings and burns like a hot fire from the breath of a dragon. Things that make me go hmmmm. Let us wake up and see what this divisiveness is really all about. It’s about the enemy taking our eyes off the prize and doing his best to rip apart and hurt the body as much as he can right now because he knows he won’t get the chance when we are snatched up from him and before he can get his teeth into us. Let us as Pastor JD Farga would say; “agreeably disagree”.
Let those of us who long and look with childlike excitement and wonder at our Jesus’ return for us by seeking his signs do it and expound about it in peace. Don’t attack us and the sign and try to shut us down. Instead, let’s have civil conversations with each other. We will return the favor and allow those who don’t enjoy the watching for his signs to stay on that more rigid path. The ones who long for his appearing still but in a more even toned way about it. Perhaps if we stop to realize and remember and take the word as truth that as a whole body we each have different parts in it. We each have different ways of working for the Lord. We each have different roles and passions he gives us. We each see and discover things differently. We should be learning from each other and appreciating those differences not attacking each other. Why? …. Because:
3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned. 4 For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function, 5 so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. 6 Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them…~ Romans 12:3-6
On that note, here is a response from one Luis Vega about it :
“Consider the fact that even Jesus’ heavenly signs, i.e., the Christ Stars were not understood by the whole nation of Israel but a few in the inner Priesthood that confirmed the Star of Christ to Herod, and only after they searched the Scriptures. The Leaders and Teachers of Israel ‘missed it’. It took foreigners, those ‘outside’ the main ‘church body’…as in the Magi from Persia to recognize, discern and in turn follow by faith the ‘Star’ as being the sign of Christ’s birth. Perhaps to the people of Israel and its guarded King and Priestly class, such ‘researchers’ into the ‘Sign’ of the Sun, Moon and Stars might have appeared to be on the fringe, ‘astrologers’, non-scriptural, non-scholastic and unconventional. However the Magi’s diligence to seek Christ in all things and glorify Him is forever recorded as part of the example of man of faith acting on such ‘Signs’ in the Heaven that led to a face-to-face encounter and worship of the King of the Universe.
Consider that even when Jesus was amongst His people, in the flesh that one could touch and speak to…likewise the nation of Israel did not recognize Him, nor the crowds and even some of the Disciples had doubts at the beginning. Some said ‘this about Jesus’, others ‘said that’, etc. Thus the question posed by Jesus to Peter, etc.
The point is that then, of who Jesus was in that very moment as to now with the Revelation 12 Sign phenomenon, there was and is real and heated contention. Never mind that Jesus’ birth and death both came with a ‘Sign’ and profound ones at that. Yet today, no such topic is dividing the Church Body -full blown now as the Revelation 12 Sign phenomenon. It has become more contentious than the Tetrad Blood Moons, the Shemitah, Camping’s failed Rapture predictions and so on.
One cannot help but compare the issues in these Last Days leading up to the Sign. There is much debate as there should be with the Church Body and one can appreciate a fair and balance critique. So far, such that have attempted to critique the Revelation 12 phenomenon have erred in positioning themselves on the opposing viewpoint. That is understandable as some are cautious based on the faulty theology some are ascribing to it… It is distracting from the true essence of the Sign but in the same vein, such totally discount any possible prophetic merits of the Sign.
The issue is with the interpreters, not the Sign itself. However, the Sign is being dismissed totally because of the interpreters; not right, nor fair in an honest debate and discourse. The contention over Jesus occurred right down to His death, burial and even after His resurrection, right down to this present day. Is it any wonder why a similar ‘Sign’ could have the same effect? Does that level of contention perhaps then give the Sign some measure of added credibility?” -Luis Vega
I will always love what I have learned from Chuck Missler and the man himself so instead of sharing the debunking video done by Ron Matsen here too, I’d rather share one of Chuck’s video’s that I could truly appreciate. A study with substance because he put time into them. A study from the heart…A study he actually did because it is coming straight from his own lips:
Dr. Chuck Missler actually saying the “male child” could be the Church, and Rev 12:5 could be the Rapture from 34-40mins in.
Dr. Chuck Missler talking about the “Zodiac” or “Mazzoroth”
(Picture a baby…Jesus the head of the baby and us the body of that baby..emphasis mine)
17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the HEAD of THE BODY, THE CHURCH. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.
21 And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, 22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister. ~ Colossians 1:17-23
1 And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. 2 She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth. 3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. 4 His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it. 5 She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne… ~ Revelation 12
*** HAPPY UPDATE ***
I just heard from a friend of mine that Ron Matsen has invited Scott Clarke onto his show to have discussions about the Revelation 12 sign. I think this is a wonderful change in events. It shows a real effort to look further into the matter as bereans. Let’s pray that it will be a gracious and Christlike time and, that even if they do not agree, each side and the rest of the body will learn something from each other and, start loving and appreciating each other instead of being divisive and hurtful with one another. Amen? Amen 🙂 If I get a link to that interview I’ll post it here. If not, then keep looking for it at Koinonia House.
*** HERE IT IS…RON MATSEN with SCOTT CLARK ***
This is just wonderful were brothers can get together and just talk about it all in love…Please give it a watch! God bless Ron’s graciousness and humbleness! I can only pray that I could be that gracious!